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A somewhat idle question, but, following up on something Rob G mentioned in the 'Time to Dump The Atlantic' thread: is 'Mulholland Drive' more of a popular or more of an art movie? It seems pretty far toward the art end to me.
Posted by: Mac | 06/05/2013 at 03:23 PM
So you are doing a book of your pieces? You talked about doing a book ages ago. What's it going to be called?
Posted by: Grumpy | 06/05/2013 at 04:03 PM
Yes--self-published, of course. It will be called Sunday Light. My daughter Clare is doing the design (here's her web site, and also the basic selection and some editing. It should have already been out--I'm the holdup. As I'm always complaining, I'm way too busy, and it's not too exciting to go back and read the old stuff, decide which ones should go in, etc.
Posted by: Mac | 06/05/2013 at 04:18 PM
When you say self-published, do you mean we won't be able to buy it on amazon? Or are you publishing it as an ebook that one can buy for a kindle?
Posted by: Grumpy | 06/05/2013 at 05:04 PM
~~'Ran' just seemed to be a lot of blood and shouting.~~
Did you have the subtitles on? ;-)
I can honestly say that I've not seen a Kurosawa film I disliked, although some are undoubtedly better than others. I love 'Ikiru,' which I think is the best of his "contemporary" films, and probably in my top ten, if not top five. Of the historical films, besides 'Ran,' I'd have to say that 'Seven Samurai' and 'Rashomon' are faves.
Yes, I'd say that Mulholland Dr. leans more towards the art end of things, but it did get somewhat of a "popular" release, not unlike "The Machinist." Lines are blurry here!
Posted by: Rob G | 06/05/2013 at 05:10 PM
Part of the impetus behind my comment about great movies being on the border between art and popular was this. I have taught some courses with titles like 'theology and film.' And I've done a lot more courses in which I used movies. I have made enormous efforts to get the students to look at the movie as a *film* that is for instance to notice how its shot, the pace, the background music and so on. I thought it could not be a serious course unless I got the students to observe the cinematography of the movies. I never succeeded at all. I talked to someeone else, who did a jointly course on 'Theology and Film' at Aberdeen after I left. He said it drove his co-teachers crazy that the students would not go beyond seeing the movie as a story that happened to be filmed.
The other day, I decided that when I teach 'theology and film' again, I'm going to chillax on the seeing movies as movies concern. Because how often do you hear someone come out of a cinema and say, 'that movie had great wide shots'? From my experience with students, people instinctively view movies as stories which happen to be filmed. So maybe they are right.
It seems to be that the heart of the difference between art movies and popular movies is that the art movies are more interested in cinematography than in story. And I don't think one can make a *great* movie with no concern for narrative dynamism.
So that's why I say a great movie should be on the borderline, usually.
I still say usually. It;s not an invariable law. There may be exceptions.
Posted by: Grumpy | 06/05/2013 at 05:11 PM
I saw some Kurosawa with my parents as a child, and all I remember is blood and shouting. I hated them. It took Ryan to persuade me to try Ikiru for the course, and it worked very well. I was pleasantly surprised.
Posted by: Grumpy | 06/05/2013 at 05:13 PM
More later, but quickly: by "self-published" I just mean there's no publishing house involved. It's just me, publishing it at my own expense. Vanity publishing, as it used to be called, though electronic and print-on-demand publishing have made it somewhat more respectable. It will be available in both electronic and paper form. If I can ever get it done...
Posted by: Mac | 06/05/2013 at 05:36 PM
"It seems to be that the heart of the difference between art movies and popular movies is that the art movies are more interested in cinematography than in story."
Well...since you put it as "more" rather than something closer to "only," I can sort of agree. But the Art films that I consider truly great have a very definite narrative interest. It's just more subtle than most popular movies. Take Winter Light and Wild Strawberries, for instance. Very very definite narrative movement in both of those, but it's more interior than exterior. It's like the difference between a literary novel and a detective story.
Posted by: Mac | 06/05/2013 at 07:20 PM
I think it's ok that people in general are not conscious of the cinematic art in a movie, and just respond to it as a story, without thinking about how much the cinematography etc. have to do with their reactions. Maybe not so ok for your students, who ought to be interested in looking a little more closely. But basically not a bad thing.
Posted by: Mac | 06/05/2013 at 07:22 PM
"It's not an invariable law" (Grumpy). "Lines are blurry" (Rob).
Right, I don't think too much importance should be attached to the art vs. popular distinction. You can say this or that particular movie tends more in one direction than the other, but to try to draw a distinct line is foolish. Personally I don't accept the idea that there is any fundamental difference--ontological difference, you might say--between popular art and Art art. There may be differences of intention and execution, but both are art in the most basic sense.
Posted by: Mac | 06/05/2013 at 07:27 PM
I think one either has to give up on it or not teach theology and cinema. So far, I've abandoned the course on theology and cinema, but I still use a lot of movies in courses that are about other things. Because the use of the movies in the other courses is so successful I began to wonder the other day if I was right to make visual response an absolute sticking point.
Posted by: Grumpy | 06/05/2013 at 07:27 PM
To some degree you always have to teach to your students' level, so it seems right to adapt what your doing as you see what's effective and what's not. You might wish for better students, but as the annoying saying goes, it is what it is.
Though I have to say I don't think visual response should be a sticking point, exactly. I mean, it's important, but it's certainly not everything.
Posted by: Mac | 06/05/2013 at 07:43 PM
I'm talking about, I can't get them to think at all about shots or frames or colour vs. black and white, or sound tracks. It's not that they are stupid. At Aberdeen, yes, they were stupid. But these students here are very bright.
Oddly, in What is a Person, I got more papers noticing that the film is a film than in any 'film and theology' class.
Posted by: Grumpy | 06/05/2013 at 08:19 PM
I didn't mean stupid. Just not attentive to or interested in the things you were trying to point out to them. Though I must say it seems a bit obtuse of them. I mean, it's not as if there's anything conceptually difficult about noting the visual tools that go into telling the story.
Posted by: Mac | 06/05/2013 at 10:03 PM
Having taught high school English lit for a number of years, I think you can say the same thing of readers that you can say of moviegoers. There are loads of readers who read exclusively for plot: these are the folks who gobble up mysteries or thrillers or romances at rate of two or three a week. Not much attention is paid to character dev., descriptive prose, etc. I think that this sort of reader translates to the type of moviegoer that Grumpy describes.
On the other hand, there is the minority that pays attention to language, character, etc., and will read more "literary" fiction, as opposed to mere page-turners with lower quality writing. These readers are probably more likely to enjoy artsy films.
This of course does not mean that there are no literary novels that are page-turners, or that there are no artistic films that are also exciting and dramatic.
Posted by: Rob G | 06/06/2013 at 07:55 AM
All true, but I remain mildly surprised that college students could not be induced to note those things. But then we're not talking about a course in film in itself, but in relation to theology etc., so I guess it's more understandable.
Posted by: Mac | 06/06/2013 at 10:46 AM
I'm wondering now whether colour, shadow, framing, panning, angle, etc. can be related to theology very usefully.
Would it have any *theological* relevance that there was "realistic" background noise, or a close-up, at a given point?
But it mostly reminds me of trying to get students to notice things like format, paper (or parchment), watermarks, type, bookbinders' signatures, chain-links, etc. (let alone things like narrative perspective, or pacing, or any of the techniques of content).
Posted by: Paul | 06/06/2013 at 05:08 PM
The medium is the message in any art form, so yes, it is related to theology
Posted by: Grumpy | 06/06/2013 at 07:29 PM
Could you give an example?
Posted by: Paul | 06/07/2013 at 11:52 AM
The way the old Testament narrative is driven by dialogue embodies something about the relationship between God and human beings.
Posted by: Grumpy | 06/07/2013 at 01:50 PM
Fair enough. But how does lighting or montage impact on theology?
Posted by: Paul | 06/07/2013 at 04:40 PM
How one 'says' it is embodied in what one says.
Posted by: Grumpy | 06/07/2013 at 05:00 PM
So I've often heard. But let's say I have translations of Nathan's exchange with David read to me aloud, viva voce; recorded on to vinyl by a famous actor; recorded on to magnetic tape by a pair of unknown actors; handwritten in a school notebook; handwritten on parchment; printed on parchment in blackletter; printed on paper in blackletter; printed on rag paper in roman type; printed on wood-pulp paper in roman type; printed from a dot-matrix printer in a Geneva font; scrolling across my computer screen in Times New Roman; or read to me by Siri. I'm struggling to see how the different media actually do make it a different message.
Add in all the variations of film-making (light, camera-angle, focus, sets, costumes, make-up, etc.) and I can see how the artistic achievement would change, but not the theological import.
Posted by: Paul | 06/08/2013 at 07:30 AM
I admit I don't see the theological import, either. It would be very subtle, I would think.
Posted by: Mac | 06/08/2013 at 12:40 PM
I can't say I really do either Maclin, but there was a scene in The Passion of the Christ, where Jesus is being accused of blasphemy by the High priest. Until I saw it on film and particularly the expression on the face of Cavaziel (sp?) I really hadn't realised the extraordinary irony of a man calling God blasphemous and just how that must have ripped God's heart apart.
Posted by: Louise | 06/08/2013 at 01:27 PM
Well, as Louise says, I think how one imagines the thing determines how one conceives or thinks about the scene theologically.
Posted by: Grumpy | 06/08/2013 at 07:10 PM
Sorry guys I'm not on it. Today I took my cat to the vet, possibly for the penultimate time, coaxed the last of 17 chapters of a Festschrift out of an overworked priest, sent the Festschrift to the publisher, and tried to pack to go to NYC then Hungary, whilst said cat lay on the pile of clothes I just recovered from the dry cleaner.
Posted by: Grumpy | 06/08/2013 at 10:15 PM
I thought I had a busy day. I'm sorry about your cat. Is it the one that was lost that time?
Posted by: Mac | 06/09/2013 at 12:09 AM
Hungary's always nice.
Posted by: Paul | 06/09/2013 at 01:53 AM
Yes, the one who was lost. He has been eating less and less and yesterday, the day before leave, he stopped eating altogether. He's having blood tests, and I'll find out when I'm in NYC> I've got to go to NYC, because it's being paid for by others, and I have to go to Budapest because it's work and I've actually paid for others to go. But I was supposed to England after that to see my folks, so I can curtail the trip after we'rd done in Budapest and come back and do the worst.
Posted by: Grumpy | 06/09/2013 at 05:29 AM
Some people I know here are in the same situation with their much-loved cat. My sympathy.
Posted by: Mac | 06/09/2013 at 07:52 AM
You might want to take precautions in Hungary: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22811172
Posted by: Paul | 06/09/2013 at 12:19 PM
"worst floods of all time". That is severe.
Posted by: Mac | 06/09/2013 at 12:45 PM
Yes, I know about the flooding. I'll be in NYC for a couple of days, then I'm flying out to Budapest on Tuesday night. Pius ate a little tonight according to the cat feeder.
Posted by: grumphy in Amsterdam Schiphol | 06/09/2013 at 09:10 PM
Had a similar thing with one of our cats several years ago. It was sad to see, though I was not nearly as attached to her as you are to yours, and anyway she was something like 22 years old.
Posted by: Mac | 06/09/2013 at 10:22 PM
I'm using the laptop that I keep for traveling! It gives my address as Amsterdam! I didn't see it and wondered who was impersonating me.
Posted by: grumphy in NYC | 06/10/2013 at 05:14 AM
Oh, I thought maybe Amsterdam was a stop on your way to Budapest. Which probably doesn't make sense, but that's what I assumed. It did cross my mind that your stay in NYC was awfully brief.
Posted by: Mac | 06/10/2013 at 06:58 AM
No I'm still in NYC, and we are writing a statement. The cat feeder says Pius is eating a little, and the vet says the blood tests effectively showed nothing much.
Posted by: grumphy in NYC | 06/10/2013 at 04:53 PM
How old is he?
Posted by: Mac | 06/10/2013 at 07:11 PM
He's seventeen years old. Born my first spring in Aberdeen, in my flat, 1996
Posted by: grumphy in NYC | 06/10/2013 at 07:39 PM
The cat feeder is feeding him rotisserie chicken and he's nibbling.
Posted by: grumphy in NYC | 06/10/2013 at 07:39 PM
Seventeen doesn't necessarily seem terminally old, based on my experience: two cats that live to twenty and beyond. And they both spent much or most of their time outside, where the living isn't easy. No rotisserie chicken. Good you have someone to take good care of him.
Posted by: Mac | 06/10/2013 at 08:33 PM
I wouldn't have left, even if I lost several thousand dollars in airfares and pissed a lot of people off, if I didn't trust the cat carer. She is going in twice a day and trying to make sure he eats something. We are waiting to see what the vet says to do next. He seems to want to eat but to struggle to chew. Both of us have seen this and can't reconcile it with the vet finding no problem in his teeth. The American vets seem to love doing 'blood work' which = taking a blood test. But none of his blood tests including the one they did this week end, have shown anything.
Posted by: grumphy in NYC | 06/10/2013 at 08:38 PM
I suppose you could try a different vet. I had a long-standing problem with a much too smelly dog. There was obviously something wrong beyond just the natural tendency of dogs not to smell good. The vet we go to is a group practice, and several of the docs told us there was nothing much to be done, and just to bathe her more often, which didn't really help. Finally one of them via some sort of detective work concluded that the fundamental problem was low thyroid, which was somehow enabling the skin problems that actually caused the stink, put her on some medicine, and she's been MUCH better ever since.
Posted by: Mac | 06/10/2013 at 09:39 PM
Until about November I was using a vet who was very expensive and very into 'preemptive' medicine. It seemed to mean that whenever I went in for one thing they found something else, and I ended up paying 700 dollars when I thought it was going to 200 dollars. I finally lost trust in them and moved to a cheaper less preemptive vet after Christmas. But the first, extortionistic, vet *does* know more about his health over the past two years. So I am tempted to go to them for a second opinion. I am waiting to see what the x rays from the second vet, due today, have to tell us. If they say he has cancer, then the problem is 'solved'. But if they say nothing we still have a problem about why he is not eating and losing weight, and in that case I may go for a second opinion to the first vet.
We walked along the Danube today and the flooding was not too untoward.
Posted by: grumphy in Budapest | 06/12/2013 at 02:44 PM
Apes and Violins
Posted by: janet | 06/12/2013 at 06:12 PM
The clinic that the vet that found our dog's problem was part of tends toward that extortionist/preemptive direction, too. They keep wanting us to pay $200 to have our dogs' teeth cleaned, and making us feel guilty when we don't. Hmm, could plain old teeth problems be Pius's trouble? I suppose not. It would have to be awfully bad to prevent him from eating.
Posted by: Mac | 06/12/2013 at 06:59 PM
I keep asking if it is his teeth and they are insistent it is not.
Yes, our extortionist place was obsessed about teeth cleaning too!
Posted by: grumphy in Budapest | 06/13/2013 at 12:18 AM
They say they can see 'something' from the x ray but don't know what it is and they need an ultrascan.
Posted by: grumphy in Budapest | 06/13/2013 at 12:20 AM
That doesn't sound real good.
Janet, did you mean the vets are like apes with violins?
Posted by: Mac | 06/13/2013 at 09:25 AM
I meant that you should use this one. Sorry it should have been "with" instead of "and."
Anyway, it's one of my favorites. I printed it out and gave it to my son and his wife before their wedding.
AMDG
Posted by: Janet | 06/13/2013 at 09:39 AM
Oh, I see. I had completely forgotten that the reference to the book was in the post. That kind of thing frequently happens in these conversations. Anyway, yes, I remember you liked that one, and I had picked it for the book.
Posted by: Mac | 06/13/2013 at 10:23 AM
Gee Grumpy, you've had your cat a long time. You have my sympathy. I was bereft when my 14yo dog died. I hope Pius hangs in there for a while yet. Great name he has too!
Posted by: Louise | 06/13/2013 at 03:26 PM
Thanks to all.
Posted by: grumphy in Budapest | 06/13/2013 at 03:50 PM