That's a good approach, Mac. Theology types I have spoken to say that the main purpose seems to be in pastoral ministry, and approaching all people with love. I'm happy just to know that; my curiosity goes no further.

Like you, the efforts to bend AL to serve partisan interests don't interest me. However, it seems that this document does raise some .... vexing? ... questions about what to make of it, and I am interested in sincere attempts to understand and assess it. But I don't know if I'll read it; the length is a deterrant.

As you may remember, I was worried about this document, and, based on what I've read, it seems that my biggest worries can be laid to rest. No great crisis of papal authority is being precipitated. At worst, it seems the Holy Father has given us a muddle. That's a relief.

I'm fairly certain that partisanship in every area is the zeitgeist of our age, and that we won't last long enough to see it out--Craig might. People seem to absolutely relish it and not really want it to end.

More and more I think that the only way to communicate with people is on a very small one-to-one or small community basis. The only people with whom you have any credibility are the people who see how you live. It's very hard slogging work. Come to think of it though, it's what Jesus did. Now if I could just work miracles...

AMDG

Preferential option for the poor is partisanship. So not all partisanship is bad.

No, I would say partisanship has negative connotation.

AMDG

And I think the last sentence of your first paragraph is the biggest part of the problem. I wonder how much comboxes have contributed to this frame of mind.

AMDG

What are comboxes?

To be fair to everyone in comboxes (that's a comment box, like this one, Stu) this was a problem long before the internet and this whole problem of conflict in the Church was never going to just go away. I do think it's worse now, but really, Cardinal Newman saw this coming and he died in 1891! It will continue to get worse until something starts to change it. I don't know what the something is, but it will be inspired by the Holy Spirit. Remember that this division is due to "Modernism, the synthesis of all heresies" as St. Pius X called it or as Belloc called it "The Great Heresy."

Yes. It's difficult to do without getting into spiritual trouble of one's own. You see a lot of that in the internal Church fights.

Yes, Newman was right. And Modernism itself is a manifestation within the Church of the spirit of the age, which is profoundly skeptical and materialistic (in philosophy--I had a very confusing exchange with someone on Facebook a while back who thought I meant "materialist" in the casual sense of wanting money and things).

I think this was more just a case of holes in the person's education--I had the impression that she just wasn't familiar with the philosophical sense of the word. It surprised me, because she has a degree from a pretty prestigious school.

Are the times "tougher than most, at least spiritually"? I often wonder about that. I'm inclined to agree, but am not sure. I don't suppose we can be sure.

I had minutes of discussion with a philosophy student at a prestigious university about his insistence it was ludicrous to believe in a personal God, before it became apparent he thought "personal" meant "anthropomorphic".

Clearly, Christians do in some sense believe in an anthropomorphic personal God, but that he should think that the term limited God to that astounded me.

In my experience, even those who understand the concept of God who is a person don't see any difference between the One God and, for instance, Zeus. And from that point of view you can understand why they ask why anyone should believe in our God rather than Zeus.

IF these times are more difficult than most spiritually, it's not because things are a mess, either inside or outside the Church, which as you say they always have been. It's the denial and rejection of fundamental realities, such as the difference between men and women, the difference between human beings and animals, and so forth, things that were taken as obvious in the past. As far as I know this is a new thing in history, at least with respect to its success. Gnostic philosophies and such may have denied that such distinctions had meaning in the spiritual world, but I wonder if any of them would have maintained that there was no difference between a man and a woman marrying, and two men or two women marrying.

Still a big "if", though.

Well, the title of this post is very accurate. It really isn't about the joy of love. ;-)

AMDG

I think the ban against religious images should have been maintained regarding God the Father. Those pictures of bearded old men have done a great deal of damage.

I don't see anything necessarily wrong with "personal savior." I've always taken it just as an emphasis on the importance of personal commitment, God's concern for every individual soul, and so forth. But there may be heretical reasons behind the emphasis--the whole Anabaptist rejection of a visible Church, denial of infant baptism, no doubt others that I can't think of right now.

"Are the times "tougher than most, at least spiritually"? I often wonder about that. I'm inclined to agree, but am not sure. I don't suppose we can be sure."

I suppose we can't know for certain.

I am, however, hopping mad, because I have just read today that someone I hope to see convert to the Faith is doubting there would be any point, on the basis that the Pope has issued AL, with all the doubtful material it contains. It's not his only objection, but it's just another rather large stumbling block and there's not much joy of love in that. I will say no more.

What I mean about the damage, Janet, is that I think an awful lot of people have that image of God the Father in their heads. It's no wonder they think he's the same kind of thing as Zeus and have trouble attributing infinite attributes to him.

My Catholicism and faith certainly do not depend on who the Pope is and what he writes. By this statement I do not intend in any way to say something negative about Pope Francis.

"Anyone considering coming into the Church really ought to recognize the possibility of a pope with bad judgment or worse. Maybe the person you're talking about could come to see it that way."

Thanks, Maclin. That's a good reminder.