Could also refer to the option of retiring from the Papacy if you feel you are too old.

I find all this a little tiresome, even exasperating, because this discussion was being held twenty-five years ago in the pages of the magazine Caelum et Terra and other places.

I knew an elderly academic who would, with his wife, attend conferences. They return from one in 1996 and she tells me her husband was exasperated. "Not one new idea". He was then 65, and came from a generation of academics who read widely but published little. You don't have time to read widely anymore (too much material), but you'd think they'd conduct literature reviews first and discover that whatever novel line of inquiry they're promoting to get tenure is a furrow that's been ploughed before.

Dreher is 50 years old so hasn't quite the excuse a younger man would in this vein. Alas, he's also an incorrigible attention whore (in addition to his other distinctive and peculiar shortcomings). This is Crunchy Cons redux.

"This is Crunchy Cons redux."

Bet you haven't read the book yet, have you, Arthur?

I read it last week. It's got a few parallels with C.C., but other than that it's quite different.

Gerald Russello has a good brief review up at ISI if anyone's interested.

I would note that the book is being talked about in conjunction with two other books that have recently appeared, one by Anthony Esolen and one by Cardinal Chaput. I've read the former but not the latter.

But maybe Art doesn't like them either.

I read it last week. It's got a few parallels with C.C., but other than that it's quite different.

You're not understanding me. I'm not referring to the semantic content, but to it's function.

Bet you haven't read the book yet, have you, Arthur?

See Mortimer Adler and Charles van Doren on this point: not every book merits a line-by-line reading. An inspectional reading (or less) will often do. In the case of Dreher's output, reading the reviews will do.

I have no objection to Dr. Esolen. I read his articles. His more scholarly work is in imaginative literature, and literary criticism simply is not my subject.

I don't have any objection to Apb. Chaput (a man Rod Dreher despises). I've seen no indication that the Catholic episcopacy has much insight into its own problems, much less those of a public official in a hostile world.

Here's Rusello's review.

Craig, yes, that was an extremely conspicuous and significant "oversight".

I'm not by any means dismissing the concerns, and I probably agree with most of Dreher's diagnosis. I'm sincere in that "Godspeed." But I don't have anything new to say, and as a matter of direct concern it's over for me: my children are grown and I don't have any control over how my grandchildren will be raised.

The web site where some C&T articles were archived seems to have gone away. If someone had interest and time to put the whole thing online...I took a few preliminary steps toward it and then realized it would be way more work than I had time for. To get the feel of it you'd have to do scans and pdfs or something, because the graphics were part of the flavor.

Thank you. You have a different notion of "extremely easy" from me. :-) And that would be only the beginning. I think you'd need to contact all the individual authors--I think the default legal situation is that rights revert to the author after first publication. In any case it would be the right thing to do, to get the permission of the writers and artists. And somebody would have to design and build the web site. It would be a huge job.

Anyway, I think I only have one copy of each issue and don't want to cut them up. Daniel may have multiples.

"let me strongly encourage readers to buy, read, and thoroughly absorb two important new books..."

He's a lapsed film critic / columnist / editorial writer. He doesn't produce 'important' books. He can spark a lively discussion. He runs on too long in doing that, however, and moderates the discussion badly.

Rob, I'm laughing at the comment you left on Dreher's blog:

"Seriously, what’s with all the non-reading naysayers?"

I think it would require more than that to get the file or files in a condition that would make them of consistently good enough quality for comfortable reading. But even if that's not true, it's still an enormous project. I can't foresee myself ever wanting to spend that amount of time on it.

Ok, I'm sold, I'm definitely going to check out Longfellow. The Dante remarks in this post were pretty hasty, and I see that what I said doesn't really sound as positive as I intended. At his best he's quite good. He was probably over-rated in his lifetime and under-rated since. bet I would still like The Song of Hiawatha.

As for coolerator, well, it's best to know the truth, even if it's painful. :-)

Sometimes I do run across a book which I feel entitled to criticize without reading. That happened with a post here some years back. Somebody had written a book making the case that the baby boomers are/were the real Greatest Generation, responsible for most of what's good in the present day. I scoffed at the idea, mentioning the book's title and author's name. I was very surprised to have the author leave an indignant comment. Apparently he had a Google Alert or something that notified him of any mention of his name.

Best of C&T--yes, that's much more doable, and in fact I gave some serious consideration to doing it a as a "self-published" book. This was at a point where my book was almost done, so I felt like I knew enough about that process to do another one, and I hadn't started on the next one. Once I got going on the latter project, though, I put the idea aside. A web site along those lines could be done, too, or instead.

"Sometimes I do run across a book which I feel entitled to criticize without reading."

Oh, sure, if you disagree with the basic thesis from the outset. But with Dreher's book many of the critics are getting the thesis wrong, then proceeding to criticize the book based on that error.

A 'Best of C&T' book might actually do pretty well.

Yeah, that frustrates me no end. It's like all the knuckleheads who've never read one paragraph of Wendell Berry, yet criticize him for saying that everyone should move to the country and take up subsistence farming.

I have read Berry and can say his conception of the role agriculture can and should play in the economy and why farm populations decline is erroneous.

Mickey Spillane once said, "I am not an author. I am a commercial writer. Margaret Mitchell was an author. She wrote one book". You read Mickey Spillane for entertainment. He's not 'important' and doesn't claim to be. You don't need to read his books line-by-line to know that.

Both of you, do you think librarians read line-by-line every book they purchase? Acquisitions librarians do not necessarily do their jobs well, but they do have a rough and ready way of evaluating literature and they're on a budget. Mortimer Adler and Charles van Doren provide you with a means of doing so without line by line readings (which acquisitions librarians do not have time to employ).

"I read a really interesting review of The Demon In Democracy a week or two ago that made me decide definitely to read it."

Yeah, it's well worth it. Very thought-provoking.

Art, your beef over the "importance" of Dreher's book is with Abp. Chaput, not me. I simply quoted him. My objection was to the non sequitur in your comment. The idea that a "lapsed film critic / columnist / editorial writer" is somehow inherently unable to produce an important book is quite illogical, and elitist to boot.

"I have read Berry and can say his conception of the role agriculture can and should play in the economy and why farm populations decline is erroneous."

Which is fine, but I think you would agree that he doesn't propose that large segments of the population return to farming.

"Do you think librarians read line-by-line every book they purchase?"

Generally speaking, if I have questions about a given book I'll get if from the library for a perusal before I decide to purchase and/or read it closely. I don't buy many books sight unseen unless I've read reviews from people I trust. What librarians do isn't to the point, as they are reading for a different purpose.

What librarians do isn't to the point, as they are reading for a different purpose.

Yes it is the point. The acquisitions librarian is making a decision as to whether a book fits in her collection. They don't read the book line-by-line to figure this out. (Dreher's work actually is public library fare). The potential reader (if he's on his game) makes use of some similar cues to ascertain if Dreher's book is worth the time in that particular genre.

"The potential reader (if he's on his game) makes use of some similar cues to ascertain if Dreher's book is worth the time in that particular genre."

The librarian may very well be acquiring it with no intention of ever reading it himself. Thus, the cues may be similar but the intent is quite different. I speak as one who not only has a sizable personal library, but who, in pre-internet days, also set up and maintained a resource library for a former employer.

And again, your beef about his book's importance is with Chaput, not me.

So what? You brought it up.

"Your contention that something does not follow as a matter of formal logic also is not indicative of anything. Which is not true."

You can't have it both ways. It's either a syllogism or it isn't. If it is, then you're wrong. If it's not, then it's really just an issue of probability, and as Mac said, not a matter of objective fact or principle.

I had never heard of Rod Dreher, nor his book, but I did go look at this website and read a few of the recent posts he has up and found them interesting. I won't be reading the book, but I also will not be egging his house with Art!

You can't have it both ways. It's either a syllogism or it isn't. If it is, then you're wrong. If

I never attempted to. Seeing it as a syllogism is your misconception. And, no, I'm not wrong.

I said "this" as if I was going to copy it for you all, but I meant "his" website. All the recent posts are good and informative. I'm still sitting here thinking about kids, pornography, and smart phones. I have been talked into the idea that all kids need a smart phone by a certain age because of school. While my stepdaughter is probably not interested in pursuing anything pornographic, it is much more likely with boys and my stepson who is now exactly at the age of craziness (14).

For me, the most important aspects of the book are those related to how Christian families and communities can respond to an increasingly hostile culture -- how to "strengthen the things that remain," in other words.

I'm wondering how moving your family from one city to another every 3 or 4 years (not including decamping to Baton Rouge after he swore up and down he would stay put where his family had been living in West Feliciana Parish) and turning your brother-in-law's domestic problems into fodder for your daily blog ("It only took Hannah 12 days to realize...") fits into the 'response'. I wondered that too when Mr. Organic produce admitted that all the windows in his house in Dallas were painted shut and they had the AC running 24/7.

You ever read about Eppie Lederer and her daughter Margo Howard? You're asking for trouble offering personal advice to an abstract audience.

"That sounds like our man, and it's foolish. Taxa are not comprehensively valid or useful. That does not render them worthless in every circumstance."

I do not recall in Dreher, or in any of the writers he draws upon, ever reading any contention that the left/right binary is "worthless in every circumstance." Merely stating that it is outdated certainly doesn't imply so.

And, I must say, that for someone who considers him unimportant, you seem to know a hell of a lot about him.

Apropos of nothing, and to move the conversation away from poor ol Rod Dreher, here is something amusing attributed to the Wall Street Journal.

"WSJ: Trump clings to wiretap claim ‘like a drunk to an empty gin bottle,’ damaging his credibility"

I'm deadly serious, Stu, and I know what I'm talking about.

AMDG

Whether Dreher practices what he preaches or not is more or less irrelevant to the truth of what he preaches.

Mr. Rob G said:

For me, the most important aspects of the book are those related to how Christian families and communities can respond to an increasingly hostile culture -

The practice is what's salient. What is he doing? What has he done that shows organization or motivational skill? Why is he telling me what I should do in some sort of evangelical or institution-building enterprise? In truth, Rod Dreher is a critic by inclination (and so is yours truly). He's someone who can tell you you're doing something wrong. He doesn't have any demonstrable people sense above and beyond persuading someone to marry him (which 95% of the male population manage to do).

I thought the business of his painted-shut windows was amusing because he did not do something obvious and readily accomplished and that he was relying 24/7 on technology that was a novelty in the Southern United States within his father's lifetime if not his. The other thing that was grimly amusing is that a man who had been so vociferously exhibitionistic about the safety of children wasn't anxious about what house fires might do to his. (I also thought it was amusing in light of domestic projects in force the previous summer chez nous).

Not wanting to read Dreher's book is understandable. I don't plan to read it myself. But your arguments against it mostly boil down to "I really can't stand Rod Dreher." Fine, but your attempts to make it sound like a matter of objective fact or principle are unpersuasive to say the least.

I don't find him an appealing person for a variety of reasons, some under discussion here in this forum, some not. That's not my argument. My argument is that he does not have the equipment to produce a monograph worth that much of an investment in time. (I skim through his blog because he sparks interesting discussions. Emphasis on 'skim').

"The practice is what's salient. What is he doing? What has he done that shows organization or motivational skill? Why is he telling me what I should do in some sort of evangelical or institution-building enterprise?"

That's relevant in relation only to whether you want to examine his ideas in the first place. But it's got zilch to do with the validity of the ideas themselves.

One of my young nephews was recently "cultivated" online – as it turned out, solely for a monetary scam which left him about a hundred dollars poorer (a lot of money for a boy that age). But one shudders to think.

My laptop is outdated -- it's seven years old. That doesn't mean it's worthless. But it's not as valuable, helpful, etc., as is used to be.

No, eventually firms stop supporting your technology and you cannot get it fixed anymore.

Ok, Art, you don't think well of Dreher at all and you're quite sure his book has nothing useful to say. Message received and acknowledged. How about just leaving it at that now?

"How about just leaving it at that now?"

Speaking for myself, I'm happy to leave it. Didn't expect such a brouhaha.

I got Esolen's book to listen to (because Rob mentioned it) during Lent, but haven't gotten to it yet. I've been listening to Paul Elie's The Life You Save May Be Your Own, which is all right except that I sometime find his interpretation of things grating, and that I've already read almost everything he's talking about and I'm beginning to think I should just go read the original again.

AMDG

The Elie book is sitting on my shelf here at work ... it may just sit there forever. I rarely read any non-fiction, but am currently reading some James Martin SJ books for Lent, right now My Life With the Saints which is quite enjoyable.

Traherne is really interesting and indirectly had a big influence on me, via the Incredible String Band.

I don't by the way mean to be saying no more talk about Dreher and/or the Benedict book. Just tired of the argument that the book can't be worth reading because Dreher is a fool.

:-)

I haven't read much by Dreher since Crunchy Cons, which I don't think I finished. This conversation is making me want to go see what's going on there.

AMDG

We might be better off reading Dombey and Son with Rob!

Dickens is never a bad idea, but I've sworn off novels for Lent, except that I have to read Quo Vadis for book club and I am fighting it every page of the way. I read it when I was 13 (I was in the play!) and again probably in my 20s. It is rife with purple prose and drives me crazy.

May be a good Lenten sacrifice.

AMDG

I downloaded the Benson after we talked about it on your blog because I found it for free, but I haven't had a chance to look at it yet.

I have never read D&S, but I watched the BBC version. It was very sad. I should probably read it. I have deliberately not read all of Dickens, because I didn't want to run out of them.

AMDG

Oh, I wouldn't take a chance on dying before Our Mutual Friend. That's one of my favorites.

AMDG

That's kind of driving me crazy--the inability to get through one book. I seem to read more slowly and to have a hard time finding time to read. I know that sounds crazy since I'm 3/4 retired, but it's true. I'm reading two books related to the book I'm working on, a novel, and was intending to read a theology book for Lent, but I keep forgetting about it. Bad priorities, I know. The novel is going on the shelf until after Lent.

Actually I suppose if I included the time spent reading current events etc. online my time spent reading would add up to a fair amount. That's what I should cut back on.

"Please explain" about Traherne and the ISB. They quote his "You never enjoy the world aright..." in one of their songs, and it had a healthy influence on me. For more details you'll have to read my book. :-) Or maybe read the excerpt(s) I'll be posting here.

I'm not sure exactly what I read. It's been a while.

Rod posted yesterday that his book debuted at No. 7 on the NYT bestseller nonfiction list. This surprised everyone, including him.

Though I have to admit it's also very funny.

No. 11 is On Tyranny.

I'm really enjoying this.

AMDG

I guess TBO sold a bigger percentage of E-books.

AMDG

I hadn't gotten as far down on the list as Homo Deus, so I had to look and see what it was, because I thought that had already happened.

I think I won't stick around for that.

AMDG

Sounds interesting.

You can use the Undead thread for comments that don't have an obvious home. Only problem with that is that if there's a very active conversation on a post and not the thread, it gets pushed off the Recent list pretty quickly.